5. Manners will take you where brains and money won't with NASA Director Donald James

My guest today is Donald James. Donald joins me to speak about his 35 year career at NASA and how he applied the lessons he learned from his Mom to successd He used the knowledge from that experience to write a book titled, "Manners will take you where brains and money won't." We discuss leadership, management, family, and even aliens!

Show Note:
Intro
-NASA Career
-Leadership and Respect for other cultures
-STEM in education and replacing it
-Honesty versus politeness
-Interviewing and hiring for a team - authenticity
-Teamwork and collaboration
-Pink Suits and being uncomfortable
-NASA compared to surgery
-Power dynamic and race relations - police brutality
-Aliens


Speaker
Donald James
www.donaldgregoryjames.com
Author:
Manners will take you where brains and money won't
Ryan Shekell
www.ryanshekell.com

Transcript

Ryan Shekell (00:00:00):

So you worked for 35 years at NASA and your title, I guess when you retired and correct me if I'm wrong was the associate administrator for education. So yeah. So what does that entail?

Donald James (00:00:14):

Um, so the agency is, uh, NASA is an independent agency and it's run by an administrator and that's one of the few politically appointed positions. The next level down, I guess, in companies that would be like executive vice presidents are called associated administrators. So we work for the massive administrator and, uh, NASA has several of these and I was responsible for all of NASA's education efforts. Uh, NASA, since it's the beginning of 1958, has always wanted to communicate the work that we do to reach out to the public, to be very engaging. And over the years developed, um, presence in education because, uh, we always spelled, it was important to inspire the next generation of scientists and explorers and people like that. Um, and so whether it's having tours of our NASA facilities or having now of course, with the internet online presence and any forms to follow missions, um, it was important to do that.

Donald James (00:01:22):

So I work very closely with our communications group and we engage in the public. Um, my portfolio was, uh, major programs across the United States. Uh, we have a presence in every state in the union, uh, in Puerto Rico and Washington DC. Uh, and we even do things globally. So, um, my responsibilities were to lead a group of people who actually did the real work as you know, how that works and, um, uh, work with Congress on our budgets and be responsive to, uh, the administrator and the deputy administrator for whatever needs there are, it was the best job, my dream job on and, and different than other jobs that I had. I mean, it really was. So I, I just felt very privileged to the more ways. Yeah.

Ryan Shekell (00:02:16):

Yeah. I mean, NASA in so many ways is, is a dream job for, for any, I guess, young kid, high schooler, early, early career, late career for anyone interested in science, um, interested in technology. And it's, it's like this great opportunity that, that you had to not only work at this phenomenal agency, but to give back in terms of education to younger folks. And I think that's really powerful, right. Because you're not just, you're not just doing the NASA thing. You're, you're, you're cultivating the next generation of NASA employees. Yeah, that's cool. So, and you wrote this book about your 35 years, 35 years at NASA, and you titled it. Manners will take you where brains and money won't. And the really cool thing about this book is that, is that you took the lessons, not just from NASA, but the lessons that you learned from your mama. And the amazing thing to me is that you reach this dream job of associate administrator for education and your mom was an educator. Can you talk about that?

Donald James (00:03:35):

Yes. Um, so for me, it wasn't lost on me that, you know, my mom's passion in life was education. And she talked to my brother and me a lot about, um, what she did. Um, I learned subtle things about the work. For example, one thing I never forgot is my mother felt it was very important to address our students by their birth and given names and pronounce them the way their parents did when they were born. And the reason I mentioned this is that she worked in an inner city school that saw many immigrants coming in. This was after the Vietnam war. There were a lot of immigrants from Southeast Asia, uh, moving to the United States and many of them in Northern California where we lived. And she noticed that some of her students tried to Americanize their names and the reason they did that as new one of the teachers and their peers to feel comfortable, being able to pronounce it.

Donald James (00:04:35):

And in some cases probably didn't want to be teased by what their names were, but my mother, uh, wouldn't have any of that. She said, I want to know what your parents called you and how they pronounced her names. She insisted on doing that. And she insisted that my brother and I do the same thing so that when we meet people, we want to make sure that we honor the very basic thing that most of us have, which is the name, our primary label, and to be respectful of that. So that taught me a lot about a respect that I carried that, you know, into my, uh, uh, NASA career, uh, particularly when I dealt with, um, international agencies all over the world and working with people from different countries. I also learned that, um, sometimes you can't inspire and, uh, turn on or transformer educate every single student.

Donald James (00:05:32):

Um, you know, my mother felt that, you know, there were some students she realized she could reach and she could address. And there were others that probably weren't, she still did her best with them, but she didn't get hung up on that. She had a class of 33 students that all 33 were going to become great. She was a French teacher. So she just knew that some weren't going to be able to do it. What this taught me was that as much as I wanted to work in the community on behalf of NASA, there are some people that just aren't going to be interested, Ryan, and it's as much as I like to think that everybody loves space and space exploration, the fact of the matter is that's not true. So I became okay with working with people who were willing to listen and engage with me. And I believe the Dasso had usually the opposite problem. We had a lot of groupies. And so we had a lot of people that were really into a hole. So, so it was, it was really, um, I think no accident that I ended up in education, um, a lot because of my mom's back forth.

Ryan Shekell (00:06:38):

Yeah. You know, I think that's a, I think that's a really powerful message. And I think in a leadership capacity, especially, and especially in, in a, in a multinational facing position, I think being able to, uh, I guess pronounce everybody's name is important, but I think it just speaks more to just the respect of culture. And if you're interacting with people from a lot of different cultures at NASA, you want to be aware of what's respectful, what's disrespectful. And as a leader, I think people really, they respect it, but they respect to you. And I think it shows that you value them. Um, so, you know, there's a lot of leadership lessons in this book. And I think that, you know, obviously you did take them, uh, from your, from your mother as well, but I do wanna talk a lot about NASA and I want to talk a lot about, um, that experience too. So you started with NASA in the eighties, is that correct? That's right. Okay. And, uh, I mean, the challenger, that was, that was, uh, a huge thing with NASA back in, I believe it was 86. Was that something you were involved in?

Donald James (00:07:57):

Yes. And in fact, the challenger accident is really what totally changed my life and my career. I recount the story of the book, how, um, how I got into NASA, which was kind of a, somewhat of a fluke, but it was an interesting story. But when I first started, I really wasn't sure I wanted to stay with NASA because I had changed my focus of my academic studies. And I talked about that in the book and I saw I'm at NASA and I was really there to get work experience to leverage that, to do, you know, what I thought I really wanted to do. And I, I did that. I took the position because my father with whom I was living at the time, um, and he was a diplomat. And so he said, diplomatically, you know, this is an actual job that you might want to think about taking it.

Donald James (00:08:46):

I was living with him and his second wife at the time. And so I think there was a not so subtle hint that it's time to fly the heat. Right. So, um, so I was working there and then in 1986, challenger happened and like many people when there's major events in the country, they knew where they were. I was in Los Angeles, I was on the four Oh five freeway listening to can X radio. And then this news flash came on about the shuttle. And I'm, you know, I'm only what now, four years in the NASA. So I'm still pretty junior. And so it was very, very devastated chorus. But what happened was, is that I had happened to meet the head of NASA education at the time, man named Franklin Collins, who we got along well, and I forgot how we met, but he called me after a few weeks after challenger and said that the agency has decided that, um, they were going to take the backup astronaut to Christa McAuliffe.

Donald James (00:09:49):

Christa McAuliffe was the teacher on the space shuttle challenger who perished with the other six astronauts and the, all the astronauts have backed up. So in case somebody gets sick or can't take the flight. So then backup, astronaut to Christa was a woman named Barbara Morgan out of Boise, Idaho, an educator there a wonderful person, still friends to this day. And they asked me to go with Barbara around the country to different events, to talk to students and teachers because the nation was in shock. It was like almost like therapy session where they wanted to connect with, with Barbie. She was also a trained astronaut and you know, that she didn't fly obviously at the time. So my job was to go around with Barbara and usually I would introduce her. I was like the press spokesman. I would introduce her to the crowd. I'd have to be the bad guy until it's time to go on to the next event or something like that.

Donald James (00:10:42):

And it was during that time, Ryan, that I saw the tremendous outpouring and love for what NASA did and for the loss of the teacher, educators and students who came out of the woodwork just to connect. And it was really one experience that flipped the switch for me and happened to be at a science teacher's association meeting in Los Angeles. And there was a large group, like there always is. I introduced Barbara. I said, if we were, and she started talking after the event, as it always happens, a bunch of people come up to the diocese to get her autograph and talk to her. And I stood off to the side, patiently waiting to get my watch. You know, it was time to get to the airplane or we had to go and this little boy comes up to me and he's holding up a notepad and a pencil.

Donald James (00:11:39):

He's giving me this cheapest look. And I'm thinking he wants me to make sure that he gets an autograph from Barbara. And I say, I said, Oh, go ahead and get in line. I'll make sure you get an autograph of Barbara. And he said, no, I actually want your autograph. And I said, my autograph, why I'm not the astronaut, she's the astronaut. And he looked at me with this complete sense of, I don't know how to describe it and just said, yeah, but you worked for NASA and man, it's just so cool. And I said, right then and there, if I worked for an agency that has that kind of impact on young people, I'm in, I'm in. And I made a decision right. Then I was going to hang my hat at NASA and make my career there. And the rest is history. I went on to eventually become the head of education to continue that.

Donald James (00:12:41):

So that's how challenger impacted me. Um, I'm still very much involved with the challenger learning center, which was started by Dr. June Scobey Rogers, who was the widow of Dick. Scobey the commanders. She's a wonderful woman. Um, and they're based out of Washington DC. And, um, one of their ambassadors, uh, programs all over the country. It's really great. Uh, I'm still in touch with Barbara. In fact, I just, I just sent her a copy of the book yesterday. And so, uh, she lives up there in idle with her husband. And so I'm, I'm very much a NASA guy and I feel privileged to really have represented that agency and seen how NASA has had an impact like that. I can tell you stories of people who were in gangs, gangs, who ended up getting involved in our NASA robotics programs, changed their life, totally went on to MIT and other schools and become, you know, uh, you know, contributing members of society. You know, so, you know, these are people that at one point grew up in a world where, you know, killing people was there, was there, you know, saying, and now they're doing well. So, um, so I'm not saying that NASA does, uh, for everybody, what I am saying is that we can have that kind of impact and it's, um, it's, it's really wonderful. So that's not, I got it. And that's why I stayed at.

Ryan Shekell (00:14:11):

Yeah. Do you think that, um, just the STEM program in general has that, has that effect on, on young men in particular? Because I do think that and full disclosure. So I was a teacher when I first came out of college for three years. And you know, one of the things that I have found is young men and boys really enjoy science. And it's oftentimes not the focus of early childhood education specifically. You know, there's a, there's a big focus on reading. There's a big focus on writing, you know, math, math is a focus, but not in the context of, of what you're going to do with it later on in life. It's just this, this, you know, class that you go to when it's numbers and it's addition and subtraction. Um, do you think the STEM program is, is this really valuable program for young boys?

Donald James (00:15:12):

Um, it can be, although I'm beginning to have the vision as thoughts about STEM programs. See, I think it's interesting that I, if you don't mind, if I just use your words to make my STEM program, well, I don't think there is a STEM program. Uh, let's, let's, let's unpack it a little bit. Right. STEM is an acronym which stands for science, technology, engineering, and maths in each of those larger disciplines. There are many sub-disciplines science has everything from neuroscience to astrophysics, chemistry, biology, the cycle biology. I mean, there's lots technology is the word technology, which, you know, the Latin roots means a way of doing things can refer to a lot of things, right. You know, we, you and I are using technology right now to communicate which wasn't available. When I started my NASA career engineering has lots of disciplines. Math has lots of disciplines.

Donald James (00:16:11):

Now I admit I was part of the effort to really STEM up by the narrative in this country for the reasons that we needed more students, particularly boys and girls to get into the field. But there's not really a program. It's an effort. It's a thought, and I'm actually starting a campaign to, to unsteady our narrative a little bit, because I think people have kind of got a little lost. I've actually had parents come up to me and say, well, now what's the best university that my kid can build a major in STEM. I said, you can't. I said, there is no major in STEM with an email with the afternoon needs. And so I think we kind of blew it and I was part of that. So I'm, I'm trying to rectify that. So

Ryan Shekell (00:16:58):

What's the alternative then? So, so what is the new, uh, proposal, I guess?

Donald James (00:17:03):

Well, I don't know if there's a label or a name, but I want to impress upon students that first of all, when I was going to college, half the disciplines and careers that are available now didn't really exist when I was in college. So you need to recognize that I believe that's going to still be true. That, and this is part of the reasons I wrote manners is that I'm looking at foundational skills. And I said, you know, it's important to, to be prepared because we don't know what the future is going to hold in terms of disciplines. And so to get trapped into one thing really deeply in particular might, uh, preclude your ability to consider other possibilities that get invented, including things that you might invent as well. So I don't know how I would, how I would label that, but I've gravitated away from a, to some degree from promoting STEM as a thing to do at the expense of other things, because it's a range of skills that you need.

Donald James (00:18:09):

So for example, I'm not a big span of so-called hard and soft skills. And some people have said, Oh, well, I think your book is really great because you're teaching students, you know, the soft skills they will need. I thought, well, I, I don't particularly like that labeling because it infers that it's not as important or good or valuable maybe, or a need certain things. I just say it's skills, you know, you're skilled in certain areas you're skilled and your ability to do calculations, to grasp concepts. You're skilled in your ability to have rapport with people you're skilled in listening, you're skilled in body language positioning. You're skilled in a lot of different things. I said, I'm sure that people like bill Gates and Oprah Winfrey and Jeff Bezos have a range of skills that help them get to where they are. Not just, so-called hard and soft skills or technical skills and non technical skills. So, um, I'm, I'm advocating for, particularly for students, high school students and college students to really think about their foundational training. That's going to enable them to grasp and tackle things in the future if that comes about, because it's a future that we don't necessarily know what's going to be in front of us. Yeah.

Ryan Shekell (00:19:29):

So, and you bring up a really good point because, you know, as a hiring, as a hiring manager in a position right now for a sales company, um, you know, one of the things I look for when I'm looking at potential candidates isn't necessarily, uh, their understanding of our products or, uh, it's a medical company. So anatomy, um, or, or any surgical techniques, really, when I'm looking to hire someone, I'm looking for someone that, uh, a is engaging to speak with, um, B has critical skink, critical thinking skills, um, has social awareness and is just able to hold a conversation, engage, um, learn new tasks. And those aren't things that necessarily are taught per se in school. Now they are traits that are acquired in school and through different, through different interactions with other people and experiences. And I think you had a great story about your first interview with NASA and almost thinking, you know, do I even have the training and the skills to do this job? Do you want to elaborate on that interview?

Donald James (00:20:41):

Yes. Um, and I I'm totally with you on what you're saying. I later on talked about all the story of meeting a young man where I felt like I could hire him in a minute, turn out. He was only 11 years old because my point is, I could teach you the technical skills. You need to do the job for the most part. Now there are some technical skills you're gonna need a lot of extensive training to do and so on, so forth. But the reality is that if you don't have the kinds of things that you just talked about, why, and it's going to be very difficult to teach someone the technical skills in order to execute on the job. The, the, when I first started, uh, my first interview at NASA was that are Goddard space flight center in Greenbelt, Maryland. And, uh, like I said, uh, they pulled my application.

Donald James (00:21:28):

I was a presidential intern. Agencies had an opportunity to interview the interns. Uh, they called me and I, uh, my father convinced me I should do the interview. And he said, practicing interview is always a good thing. He was right. And, um, and so w what, I was astounded that when we were talking, you know, it was a good conversation. I didn't, they didn't throw me any, you know, curve, ball questions that, you know, so how would you calculate the change of velocity of a spacecraft we had, I didn't get that cause that wasn't the point. Um, but I still nervous about whether or not I could be a NASA person, you know, to me, and this is, that's an agency full of geniuses and Australian students out of MIT and the IDs and what have you. And, um, and so I was surprised when they called me the next day and offered me a position.

Donald James (00:22:21):

And at the time I was still trying to go work in the international world. That's what I had my interests have evolved to. And, uh, but they kept calling until finally my lift and a little help from my father. He convinced me to take it. And, um, and later talking to the personnel, man, who, uh, was in the room, what he told me was really instructive. He told me what it was that the interviewers liked about theme, and it had nothing to do with my technical knowledge at all. It mostly had to do with the things that you just talked about. I listened, well, I asked him questions. I was sufficiently self-deprecating that I didn't show up. As you know, I am the great, wonderful future NASA person. You should be privileged to hire me kind of thing. And I've seen people that I've interviewed hundreds of people, and I can get these kids that walk in that, you know, think that, you know, that I should be grateful to have them in NASA because they're so smart.

Donald James (00:23:27):

I mean, they're smart. And they probably could do a great job, but I wouldn't hire them. I'd get on. I'd be afraid that they'd be poor team members. So, um, and it was subtle thing, you know, I dressed properly. I just assumed that was normal. I mean, I, I add on the right kind of suit and tie and the shoe Polish, my hair was cut, but you know, the guy said, no, there was another candidate. He walked in wearing sunglasses and he had a gold chain and no tie and a bit of a swagger and thought who does that in an interview? I thought that was basic stuff. So, you know, that gave me a clue. Ryan, that part is a key to having a fulfilling career is, is paying attention to those things, but don't get me wrong. I am not an advocate for not paying attention to your technical abilities to do the job.

Donald James (00:24:23):

I mean, you know, my brother who collaborated with me on this book is an airline pilot. Trust me, you have to know how to fly the plane, or they will never hire you to fly the plane. However, if you don't have good manners skills, they may pass you over. Cause somebody who does, because what my brother tells me that most of the time, he's in the cockpit things. And you have to spend time on managing are the interactions with this crew that the people in the back and the people in the front. And he tells me stories that are amazing, that actually happens yet. Every single one of them can do their job, right. You know, the pilot, the coal pot, and he's a captain. They, they know how to fly the claim. But if you want to have a statewide success plan, particularly when things go wrong, you have to really be cohesive and have to know how to dance with each other in a way that really honors your number one goal.

Donald James (00:25:13):

And that is the safety of the passengers. So, you know, you gotta, you know, you gotta know how to fly the spacecraft. You got know the flight, a plane, you know, you make medical devices, they better work. You know, they, can't not work. People have to know how to make them. Right. Um, but at the end of the day for a lay person like me, how are you going to tell me that you're a device and something that I need, you know, I have medical devices inside my body, thank God for the people who made them and did them, I'm grateful for what they did. Um, so it's important to have that, right. Um, but there's more to it. And I like to tell students being smart is not good enough. If you want to work for a place like NASA and be successful, being smart is not good enough. And that's what I tell them.

Ryan Shekell (00:26:01):

Yeah. You know, it's interesting because if you think about really any career, and I can't think of one off the top of my head that is not collaborative in some way, you're going to have some sort of team and you're going to have, whether you're working with one person or a group of people or reporting to someone, or have people that report to you. And what's, what's great about the way you articulated this book is that it seems as though these manners in these social cues, they're, they're a way that kind of show someone else that you have humility and then you have self-respect and those are both key things when you're working with others. And I love the fact that, you know, you have to have integrity and respect and mindfulness and compassion as you articulated so well, because those are all, those are all attributes that help in teamwork. Um, so you do talk as well about building a team and, and as a leader at NASA, um, what kind of, what kind of values did you really look for as you were building a team?

Donald James (00:27:17):

Well, the first thing that I looked for was a sense of authenticity and a sense of integrity. And I try, I don't know how successful I was. Hopefully the readers will, will tell me, but, you know, so it's easy to say be authentic, but what do you really mean by that? So I try to give an example of somebody who may sound like they have good manners, but you have the sense that, you know, they're putting on an act called I have good manners ACC, right? So like you might interview somebody and you're like, well, he says the right things and he sounded good and he was trust. Right. But I dunno, there's just something about them. And, and I, I likened it to the question of, okay, so when, when the recording is over, you know, and I just go hang out with Ryan, is he the same person that I just talked to?

Donald James (00:28:10):

Or was he, you know, doing a number to impress me or vice versa? Like if you were to see me and like, I don't recognize that man at all. I thought he was the manager manners guy. Right? So it's that kind of distinction. So first of all, look for people that I feel are, are, are authentic. Now. Sometimes somebody is authenticity, right. Is not something that I particularly like, but I realized that it's really kind of who they are because included in their authenticity. And this is the second thing I look for is the degree to which somebody is supportable in improving this. And I actually learned this from a cousin of mine who was going to dental school. And I was a little kid I'll never forget. He was digging in the mouth of somebody. This was at Tufts university. And he's in this big room where all these dental students are practicing on these Guinea pigs.

Donald James (00:29:06):

And I'll never forget the ins, the instructor, the dental school instructor came over. And my cousin asked him to look at his work. And the instructors said, well, that's satisfactory. And my cousin said, well, Docker, how could I make it better? What, what can I do to make this better? And I never forgot that. So that almost became my mantra. If I did something and someone's had done, that's a great job. My usually response is, well, how could I have made it better? So I'm looking for somebody who is willing to be supportable to say, you know, how can I, how can I do this, right? Or what, what do you see? Or what can I suggest? I may not know the answer I may say, well, I suggest you go talk to a professional expert if it's a significant problem. But most people don't do that.

Donald James (00:29:56):

I had a colleague once who really wasn't a very good listener and it was a real problem. And I tried to help that person, but never once did he actually say to me, um, you know, Donald, I really would like to, I, I heard the feedback about listening and I, I'm not exactly sure how to do it, you know, can you help me out here? What do you recommend? But that's the first step is you have to be, you have to be supportable. One of the most incredible quests things you could ask anybody is I need support on this. I need help. I don't know what to do. And I learned to do that even as an associate administrator, when I didn't know what I was doing, I would go ask for help. As a matter of fact, the very first question I asked when I got to NASA headquarters here, I am this big man on campus.

Donald James (00:30:41):

I went to an old friend of mine and I said, Dwayne, how do I stay out of the dark house in this job? And that was my way of asking, what are the, what are the minefields? What are the traps? What do I need to? And he said, here's who you need to talk to. Here's what you need to watch out for worry about this. Don't do this, don't do that. And so on and so forth. That's how I started my career. First day on the job. I went to see Dwayne, how do I stay out of the doghouse? So I look for people who want to be supported, uh, authenticity wants support and a sense of, of that. They want to give more than they want to take. Um, if they're good.

Ryan Shekell (00:31:25):

Yeah, sure. I'm sorry to cut you off. I was just going to ask, are there certain tells, I guess when you're interviewing someone that, that do show more authenticity, or if you are interviewing, how do you show that authenticity?

Donald James (00:31:42):

For me, usually it's the body language. Um, I've, I've learned to, um, train myself a little bit about body language to be observer of my own language. Um, usually the tell about authenticity is people are relaxed. Um, they're not fidgeting a lot. Um, and I, and I appreciate that. You can, you can be nervous, right? You, if you're new to the game and you're coming in and you really want a job. I mean, I was nervous when I went to interview at NASA headquarters, but I was aware that I was nervous so I can deploy my countermeasures. Most many people aren't really aware that they're nervous. They just are nervous. And so they haven't worked on their countermeasures. So I learned tricks. Like when I know that I'm nervous, I will usually take my right hand and put it over my left, you know, I would just connect with, and that's my signal to just take a deep breath and just be present with the person I'm speaking to.

Donald James (00:32:46):

So I look for that. Um, because sometimes the, the, the body language reveals that there is something hidden or there is something concerning or, uh, and it can work both ways. Sometimes I've drawn people out and it turns out that they have gifts that are incredible, but, you know, they grew up feeling like it. Wasn't okay to like, put that on display. And I tell a lot of students, Hey, show me your genius. I want your genius. I'm inspired by your genius. That's what turns me on. I want to know what you're great at what you're doing, and please don't be afraid to, to show that to me. And so, um, so sometimes I have to draw that out. So for me, it's body language, and it's something you just have to study. I read a lot of books on it and I pay attention to it. And I observe and ask questions when it's appropriate.

Ryan Shekell (00:33:41):

Yeah, that self-awareness is key. And I think that people do need to be self aware, especially of, of their emotions and their reactions to those emotions. And I have a theory, and I don't know necessarily that it's a theory as much as just a belief that you need to put yourself in uncomfortable situations on a daily basis. And the more, the more you expose yourself to be uncomfortable, the more you're aware of how you react. So you start feeling yourself, getting your heart rate, getting raised. You can feel yourself getting hot and sweaty, and then you can deploy some of those triggers. Like you said, put your right arm over your left, or take a deep breath for me. It's taking a deep breath through the nose to realize, okay, I need to calm myself down. I need to keep going. But it's through that repetition of doing something difficult that not only makes you aware of what's going on, but helps you understand the best way to kind of overcome that feeling. And you though you described the so well in the book, and I love the title of this chapter because you labeled it pink suits and it's being uncomfortable. And, and I love the fact that you addressed this because I really feel this is one of the most important things for anyone to do, but especially young men and people just starting new careers, because like I said, I think putting yourself in these situations to be exposed to learning and new experiences is key. Do you want to talk about that?

Donald James (00:35:23):

Yeah. Thank you, Ryan. So pink suits as a metaphor. Um, and I talked about now, you know, I don't necessarily fancy wearing a pink suit, although at my age, at this day, you know, I, I, I probably

Donald James (00:35:38):

Will. And it doesn't really matter. Nobody would think twice about it, but you can just imagine somebody said, Ryan, I just, I want you to put on this pink suit and I want you to wear it for the day. And you're like, Oh wow, that could be a little challenging and difficult. And you know, people are gonna look at me or I'm going to feel, you know, whatever it is that you react to. And the point is that metaphorically we're talking about trying on something that is, uh,

Donald James (00:36:06):

Unusual or different to examine it in a way

Donald James (00:36:11):

Of, of helping you grow. And I, I,

Donald James (00:36:15):

I look at it from a, from a manners perspective, but it really does start with awareness. So I think it was in this chapter where I, I suggest a very, very simple exercise. I said, look, when you get up in the morning after your shower, when you put on your underwear, I want you to start with your left foot first and then your right foot. Now I think, I don't know if most people start with their right foot or their left foot, but whatever you normally start with do the opposite. Now, two things are probably going to be true. One is people are going to realize, God, I never thought about how I put my underwear on. And I would imagine they wouldn't because however old they are, they probably done it thousands of times. So that's that's awareness point. Number one is how do you put on your underwear?

Donald James (00:36:54):

Right? I don't think anybody jumps up with both feet and then tries to put her one with both of you going in the same time, but whatever foot you start with do the opposite. Now here's where the second thing hat comes in is that you find out that it can be challenging. I mean, I almost fell over the first time I did this and you know, my foot gets stuck because of, I mean, I'm not sure what I believe about muscle or muscle memory, but, you know, you can imagine that you can be a little awkward. And so it's an exercise in awareness. It's an exercise and awareness about what is happening in a pink suit. When you realize you're in a pink suit moment, it's an exercise in awareness. Another example that I offer to people is wind. When you are in a conversation with a group of people, just ask yourself to slow down how much you contribute to the conversation and be an observer of the conversation and just watch the dynamics of that.

Donald James (00:38:04):

It's one of my favorite pastimes, right? Particularly when you know, I'm with my wife and her friends and my other friends. I mean, you know, I talk a lot, but they talk a lot more than I do a lot of times, depending on who they are. So I guess observe, you know, the flow of the communications, this is an observer to see, you know, what's happening. So you learn a lot that way through awareness. So, so as you sharpen your skills and awareness, now, when someone says to you, um, Ryan, I don't know if you're aware, but when you talk and you get excited, you tend to put your hand around your neck and massage your neck. And it doesn't mean anything, but I just don't know if you're aware of that now does that matter whether you do that or not. And I'm just picking on you, just, just for sake of example, that you don't, you're not doing that.

Donald James (00:38:54):

I know people can't see you, but you're not doing that. But the point is that if I am, you're on your team and I talk about what I mean by a team. And you've invited me to support you in how you show up in the world. But fundamentally I say, that's what manners are, is how you are actually showing up in the world. And I'm reacting to you, uh, about the kinds of things that you do with your body. That I think you might want to be aware of that it might seem inconsequential, but to some people external to you, it might be a tale to them that you're a nervous person and they might be concerned about that. So I'm inviting you to see if that's something that you want to correct. Most people aren't even aware of what they do. They're not aware of their ticks.

Donald James (00:39:43):

You know, I learned that, uh, the people who work with former president Clinton had to train him on how to just stipulate within the box. I'd never heard of this, but apparently he used to put his hands way outside of his body and he'd make us points like this. And they said, no, boss, you have to imagine this imaginary box around your torso and keep your hands there. And he, so he had to practice that. So apparently people who study this say that's more effective and a sign of strength and power and all that. So pink suits is my way of in fact, my publishing company is called pink suit press. That's what I named it in honor of pink suit, because I think it's the essence of really growing in this domain and sometimes manners and manners behaviors for a lot of people really is a pink suit thing. And people don't realize when they're in that moment and I'm trying to shine the light on and say, realize you're in a pink suit moment and how are you going to deal with it? And I share some stories about, you know, job opportunities and changes that were clearly pink suit moments. And I knew at the time that how I acted and reacted was going to be important and that's going to happen to a lot of people and you have to be prepared.

Ryan Shekell (00:41:05):

Yeah. You know, you said something very interesting to me there, and there's, there's this dichotomy that I'd love for you to expand on between kind of politeness and honesty. And the reason I bring that up is, you know, your example was great. You know, you're being honest with me about something I may be doing when I'm nervous. And I don't know, are you familiar with like Ray Daleo, he's a hedge fund manager and you, so one of, one of the things that he does or that he believes in with his company is this, and this may not be the term for it, but it's like extreme honesty. And he believes that anything that is being thought should be said, now that almost seems contradictory to what you're saying, right? Because manners politeness, you don't want to maybe offend people, but then going back to what you're describing is this authenticity and this honesty saying, no, no, no, I, I care about you and I want you to grow. So I need to be honest with you. If I'm just being polite, then I'm not really helping you. All I'm doing is appeasing you and making you feel good about yourself.

Donald James (00:42:22):

Um, I think that's probably the heart of understanding this work. And, and I love the question, right. And I, I really appreciate it. True story. I take a tr I write about this in the book. I take a trip to Atlanta, Georgia. Um, and when I checked into the hotel, it was actually right at the airport. I check into the hotel, the gentlemen who greeted me man, about 30 years old was just, he was just so nice and well, how are you, sir? It's great to see you welcome to the Marianna. And he went on and on like this, and, and, and I, he carried my polite gentlemanly. Everything was just pitch perfect when I got to the check-in counter. And, um, I gave him his gratuity and he left here. It was the bot bubble that was going in my head five bubble. Number one is he clearly was trained on how to engage people like me and number two, but mobile number two is I bet this is managing how he acts when he's at home, hanging out with his friends and those buddies, that's the distinction.

Donald James (00:43:36):

And so, although I appreciated and respected his politeness, I didn't feel a lot of authenticity. And, and, you know, there's, I think the distinction is how you are being honest, not the fact that you are being honest, right? I think there's a right way in a wrong way to be authentic and honest with people without being offensive. For one thing, I think it's important to be invited into the space of being honest with somebody, just because you know, you know, you and I have now talked for a while and you know, we're good in everything. Does it give me the authority to say, Hey, Ryan, I just want to tell you, you know, about that haircut you got going on there. I mean, I mean, you didn't ask me about your hair. You didn't ask me well, what do you think about my appearance? And not trying to put, I mean, that's, that's what I need.

Donald James (00:44:34):

So, I mean, I may have that thought in my head, like, brother, you gotta stuff out of here. Now for the listeners who casting Ryan, he is very handsome and he's got a great haircut. So I'm just using him as an example in here, it could work both ways, right? So yeah, you have to get permission because if you don't, if people don't give you permission, then I don't know that there's a lot of growing and learning it's gonna happen. Um, so when I talk about constructing a team of people around me, it's really inviting people to say, look, um, I want you to show me the video and the, and the photo of me, because you know, you get out of the shower and you look at yourself every day and you don't think anything of it. But the first time you see a video of yourself may get out of the shower.

Donald James (00:45:22):

You're like, what is that? You know, it's like, well, are a photograph of yourself. Or if you listen to yourself talk because that's an external source, right? So that's what I'm talking about. So the distinction for me is, you know, I think there's a way in which you can be authentic and honest while being respectful of the space that you're at. And in some cases, you know, you have to work on that. Um, I mean, I'm a man. I appreciate looking at beautiful women, but I can tell you, I don't go around commenting about, you know, women's looks all that kind of stuff, because I think it's disrespectful. Now, if somebody asked me their opinion, first of all, pro tip number one is all the guys out there. If a woman asks you what they think about their appearance, be careful. There's usually, there's usually not a right answer to that other than looks great. Don't worry about it. But that's a different book now I've made myself clear about those distinctions. So, you know, I don't, I don't mind politeness and etiquette. I think there's a place for that. And I think it's important to understand that, but I don't like it when it's phony. I don't, I don't like it when it's owning. Uh, yeah.

Ryan Shekell (00:46:41):

Well, I think people see through that. Um, and, and I think, you know, NASA similar to, to my field of business as well in terms of medical device sales, I think it's important to be authentic for a lot of reasons, as well as being honest. And I would imagine, I don't want to speak directly to Nassau. I'll let you do that. But if I'm in the operating room with a surgeon and you know, he, or she looks back at me and says, well, how does this look? Right? They finished everything up and they're looking for some honest feedback on how, whatever they just did looks in comparison to maybe their peers or the industry, you know, is it polite for me to look at them and say, it looks great, doc. Yeah, that, that is, although it's not beneficial to me, it's not beneficial to the surgeon.

Ryan Shekell (00:47:34):

It's not beneficial to the patient for me to be polite in that situation. It's more beneficial for me to be honest. And I may say that looks good. However, let's think about doing this or, you know, did you consider this part? And you know, that's more authentic. And while the while that surgeon may think that I'm polite, they are going to look for someone else to be a resource to them. And I think that's important. And NASA, I would imagine because it is a life and death situation in so many ways when you're dealing with rockets or space journeys, any, anything, these, these polite back and forth, aren't going to be productive. If, if that's all they are.

Donald James (00:48:22):

Yeah. Yes. We learned that in the aviation field several years ago, it was the case that in most, uh, cockpits white grooves, but captain was the God what he said it, it was mostly, he let's be honest. That was it. Nobody questioned him. Usually they have three, sometimes four, depending on the plane in the cockpit now is this to do to NASA research. Um, uh, it was called human factors, research work. And a lot of it was done at the NASA center where I work. What we learned was that was not helpful from a safety perspective because sometimes the first officer can see something that the captain didn't see. But if the first officer was trained to always not his ad in UV, wasn't he and say, yes, sir. Okay, fine. Even though he realized they were headed for disaster, that's not helpful as a passenger.

Donald James (00:49:19):

I want the collective best minds of everybody to get me on the ground safely. Right. Um, cause there could be any number of reasons now. Um, I'd like him to, to the metaphor of the bow and arrow. This is applicable. I think for groups where there's older generations and younger generations people, the string part of the bow and arrow are the older people. They're trying to keep things together, hold things tight. They have their ways, they have their experiences, all that the younger people are the outer part of the bowl. They just want to flail away and try this and try that at eight. Let's just go find Ailanthus do that. And then, you know, they've realized that they can't just do that, but when you put them together, when you tie the string to the bow, right, that's the only way the arrow is going to launch because they're working in concert together.

Donald James (00:50:14):

So you need both the wisdom and the experience of the older generation with the fresh and the creative and the willingness to try new things of younger generation working in harmony together. And you can use this metaphor in any number of ways. But your example in the operating room is perfect that the surgeon may have been done this particular procedure 10,000 times, and you come in there and you see something and you say, you know, doc, the way I see it, I think as we modify this particular device, it would be better if it was applied in a certain way. It's incumbent on that staff to listen and to take all the factors, uh, into effect in order for the best outcome, which is me as the patient living. So I'm with you totally on that. And that's what I'm trying to accomplish with manners and awareness and how we actually show up in the world and how we get support from one another and what we give it.

Donald James (00:51:20):

Um, it's not just about putting on a smiley face. I mean, look back in the old days of, you know, of Jim Crow and lynching. I mean, I can tell you stories about the people who went and chased black people for the audience that doesn't know I'm an African-American male who, you know, who were just as polite as they could be as they were hanging some poor guy who they didn't like. So, I mean, that's not awful example to show, but I've read stories where they were very polite and they let the guys say his prayers and they called him sir, and everything. And then the next minute they're stringing them up. So it's not just about that stuff. There's a place for it, but it needs to be, you know, there's a moral dimension to, for me, there's a moral dimension manners. Uh, and I, and I'm willing to take a stand that there is a right or wrong, there is a right way and a wrong way to engage people. And we just need to learn how to do it in a mutually beneficial way.

Ryan Shekell (00:52:25):

That's yeah, that's really great insight. And, and, you know, you bring up a really good point. And one of the things you talk about in your book is you talk about decisions versus consequences. And, and look, this is a fantastic book and I would suggest for everybody to pick it up and read it, especially young men and women who are looking to start their careers and get into the, any industry, just get into the workforce, but you bring up something. And I don't remember if specifically you wrote it in your book, maybe it was the forward. Maybe it was, maybe it was your website. And I want to tread lightly here just because of, just because of the dynamic we're in as a country in the past year. Um, but you talk about George Floyd and I'm really interested to get your perspective on what's going on with the world and not necessarily why you think, uh, we've got issues with race relations, but your perspective of manners, I think is an interesting story to relate to young black men who look have for a long time, been treated poorly by authority. And how do you think your message resonates with that population?

Donald James (00:53:49):

Well, the, the truth is, I don't know, because I don't have feedback from a wide audience in that area so far. Um, the book has gotten great traction I've and I'm invited to speak at different, um, uh, organizations. I'm a part of the organization of black aerospace professionals. And I'm presenting at the end of this week together with my brother to over 15,000 students across the country. Most of them are going to be black students, Brown Latinos. So I hope that it resonates with them. But, um, I appreciate the question because this is something that could be misunderstood, but let me try to answer it this way and maybe people will get it. So, uh, I'm a parent and I have two children. I'm fair complexion, black man. My father was darker than me. My, my, my, my mother was fairly fair, although she was African American.

Donald James (00:54:50):

And you know, she's on the cover of the book with me and my brother. Um, I'm married to a Caucasian woman. And so both my children are so fair that they could be, um, um, mistaken for being Caucasian. My daughter is quite, um, aware of her ethnicity and she is very sensitive about issues of black lives matter and social justice and things like that, and is extremely smart about these issues and very, very aware. She lives in New York and, um, one day she, and she's pretty fair. But one day she told me that she was out with her boyfriend, um, and they were driving late and, um, and they were going to get, they were getting pulled over for some reason. And before she went into her story, I said to her in complete honesty and seriousness, I said, Shawna, did you use your white girl voice?

Donald James (00:55:57):

Did you use your white girl voice? And she said, yes, dad, I did no worries. Now my daughter is a very accomplished actor in New York, so she could use any voice she wants. But what I didn't want her to do was to use her angry black girl, voice, being defiance of some white cop, who was, could have had an attitude because as a father, my number one is to keep my children alive. I want my children to be alive. We will deal with the social injustice and impression in a different context. When the dynamics of power are not in her favor. And at that moment, they weren't in her favor. He has a gun, she does it. So I'm telling you, and I have no qualms about saying this to anybody. When you are in a dynamic of power where you are the one who has the most lose, including your life, by any means necessary, you keep your life because you can't fight oppression when you're in the grave.

Donald James (00:57:04):

So I would say, and I do say to young men of color, that you have to pick your battles. You have to pick how you pick your battles. And those are manners issues. I tell a story at the beginning of the book where man had a cost of my mother and I was saving mad that somebody had stolen. My mother's person knocked her down. She was 80 some years old. She could have died. She could have been badly hurt. And my mother didn't couldn't recognize him. Didn't know what it looked like. She believed she was pretty sure he was a young black man, but he ran off before she could even get a look at his face. So the next day I go down to the dollar store where this happened. I'm I'm piping mad, and I am looking for somebody to beat up and till I came to my senses and I realized, number one, I had no idea who I was looking for.

Donald James (00:57:59):

And number two, I ran the risk. Like many people do, uh, uh, costing a young black man who had nothing to do with my mother. And not only that, but taking vigilante justice into my own hands, which was something of horrid to my mother. I never told her that I did that actually. But that's an example where I myself was potentially, um, doing something bad to somebody why the only data that I had about this, he was black. The only day that I had about him, he was black, right? So I had to deploy every manner skills that I had to pull myself back from potentially doing something that I would've really regretted.

Ryan Shekell (00:58:48):

What a great, I think that's a great, great story and a great place to kind of end this. The book is manners. Manners will take you where brains and money won't and I love it. It's a fantastic book. The writing is phenomenal. The message is even better. So Donald, thank you so much for joining us. How can people find you in the book?

Donald James (00:59:14):

Thank you. Um, best way they can go to my website, uh, where there's links to, how to actually email me. I welcome that. Uh, the URL is simply my full name, Donald Gregory, james.com, Donald Gregory, james.com. And I in the contact session, there is a way of writing me, but, um, I use, uh, the title of the book as part of my email, manners will take you@gmail.com. Manners will take you a gmail.com and I answer all emails and I welcome feedback and I, I welcome this discussion. I'm, um, I hope to instigate a manners, Renaissance, Ryan, and, um, to help, uh, have our world be a better place for my children and their children to live in. So that's my purpose.

Ryan Shekell (01:00:04):

I think that'd be great. One last question for you. I think you're the only person in the world that has the expertise to answer this question. If aliens show up, what is the polite way to greet them?

Donald James (01:00:23):

Um, that's a, that's a, that's a great question. Uh, for, for the record as a NASA person, I do believe there are aliens in the universe. Just, I want to set the record straight. They may not look like how you and I think they look like, um, but you know, we have a history of seeing people that aren't like us, we call the other and become instantly suspicious of them. And, um, my, my first reaction is to hand them a copy of the book and say, I don't know if you can read this, but this is what I'm about. What can I learn from you? Um, because in many ways we're all aliens, Ryan that, um, you know, we don't know each other. And so we create stories and narratives about the other, right. Um, people who see me initially are gonna construct something about me. People see, you might construct something about you until, you know, they get to know you and feel connected to you and connect to your heart. And, and that's what I hope we can do. And so I hope when the aliens come, actually there is a theory that the aliens are already here, but you have to call me back and I'll explain how that works. But there is a NASA theory that we're already here. Um, believe it or not, it's not too far fetched, but, um, yeah. So I hope they have good manners.

Ryan Shekell (01:01:48):

I love it. I love it. Donald James, thank you so much. This was awesome. I really enjoyed our conversation.

Donald James (01:01:56):

Likewise. I appreciate it. And let's stay in touch. All right.